Curse

Sagius Truthbarron · Mar 14, 2006, 08:47 PM // 20:47

Obviously having 2 warriors with 33%- hex durration helmets didn't get them to Taiwan, but that is beside the point. That doesn't explain the use by some teams of PvE characters with FoW armor.

Obviously, this is becuase the teams in question also PvE and were, perhaps, trying to drive some fame to their personal character names.

And its not that I'm saying there shouldn't be any PvE contests, give aways, ect: but that they should not be given solely on the basis that "well, PvP got them".

Many players who play only PvE are strangely jealous of "PvP". I simply don't think that any line between the two exists that wasn't created in the immaginations of those proclaiming them.

In retrospect, as PvP guilds would not be disqualified from this 'PvE tournament', they would probably be in better shape to win any team based challenges, compared to those guilds that work mainly in solo farming or low end PvE (as those are a large magority of 'PvE only guilds').

Chase the Sky · Mar 14, 2006, 08:52 PM // 20:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sagius Truthbarron

The point of my comment was, you mention iQ using HoD helms as if they were "T3h g0dly". It is obvious that their ploy to take advantage of their PvE characters did not work. Thus, your comment about them wearing the HoD helms is irrelevant.

The winning Korean guild also used the HoD helmets. PvP players will do PvE in order to get any sort of advantage over their opponents. It's called "Playing to Win". And every single advantage you can take over your opponent matters. PvP players DO PvE- but most of us consider doing the same quests/missions/farming over and over is boring. Human opponents are much more challenging and fighting them creates a more rewarding game.

CyberNigma · Mar 14, 2006, 08:56 PM // 20:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sagius Truthbarron

Obviously having 2 warriors with 33%- hex durration helmets

I'm sorry. I thought you knew a bit more about it than you do. I realize now I can't win the argument as you aren't fully aware of certain aspects of the game or why that part of the statement is wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sagius Truthbarron

In retrospect, as PvP guilds would not be disqualified from this 'PvE tournament', they would probably be in better shape to win any team based challenges, compared to those guilds that work mainly in solo farming or low end PvE (as those are a large magority of 'PvE only guilds').

That is quite possibly true. It would however give PvE'ers the chance to feel like they are competing towards some goal though. It would include them in a community activity with the possibility of winning at what they like to do best. Factions may be what does this, I am not sure. I don't think anyone knows yet. For those of you that think ideas like this are silly, well then you might not want to buy factions. From what they have said, these Elite Missions are exactly what we have been talking about. Competitive PvE missions. The only difference between that and what some people here want is for there to be some kind of real world competition/tournament that includes that aspect.

Sagius Truthbarron · Mar 14, 2006, 08:57 PM // 20:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chase the Sky

Ummm… you are wrong again Carebear.

The winning Korean guild also used the HoD helmets. PvP players will do PvE in order to get any sort of advantage over their opponents. It's called "Playing to Win". And every single advantage you can take over your opponent matters. PvP players DO PvE- but most of us consider doing the same quests/missions/farming over and over is boring. Human opponents are much more challenging and fighting them creates a more rewarding game.

SO you defend the comment 'PvP players know just as much about PvE as a PvE only player knows about PvP'? Or did you not read that part? That's what this whole discussion was about.

Riddle me this: if both teams had the HoD helms and one won, is that becuase
A. That team had more HoD helms
B. The winning team could handle the techniqual problems NCsoft presented them with better than the other team
or
C. the winning team was more skilled overall
?

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyberNigma

I'm sorry. I thought you knew a bit more about it than you do. I realize now I can't win the argument as you aren't fully aware of certain aspects of the game or why that part of the statement is wrong.

And what exactly is incorrect about it? The HoD helms, if I'm not mistaken gave -33% duration of hexes on yourself. It has been toned down to just -20% now.

Please correct me. How am I wrong here?

ERMC · Mar 14, 2006, 09:07 PM // 21:07

it was -50% i believe

the old describiton was "reduce hex duration on you by half"

Bahumhat · Mar 14, 2006, 09:13 PM // 21:13

(Prob said be4 but im running out on time) Guild Wars is about balenced PvP, PvE gets you ready for PvP. You can still PvE all you want, but Guild Wars is based around balenced PvP.

Sagius Truthbarron · Mar 14, 2006, 09:17 PM // 21:17

No matter the duration (and it was labeled simply "shortens the duration of hexes cast on you"), both teams had them, and knew that they had them. Neither had any advantage.

This whole thing though, is just you, Nigma, dodging the issue that PvP players also play PvE, for no matter the reason. You say that 'they know just as much as somebody who doesn't know anything about it'.

You've been wiggling your arguements into different little areas. And then it comes down to you saying this would only be so that 'PvE only players could have peace of mind'. A rugue.

Holding any kind of ingame skill contests for PvE only players would simply not work.

1. High End PvE isn't fighting challenging AI in alaberate mission settings, but just farming money.

2. PvP Guilds would easily dominate the competition.

It could not be just a challenge of ingame fighting ability, that would just be calling it a "PvE tournament". Now, I'm sure if you just wanted to make it a tournament of fighting AI monsters in mission settings, ok, that works. But thats not for PvE Players.

Shadowspawn X · Mar 14, 2006, 09:40 PM // 21:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by olydog

LOL..ok..so my theory is getting bashed pretty hard..I don't know too many people with every skill AND elite for both primary AND secondery professions..if you've done that then let me know..cuz that would be an accomplishment!!!!

I have all 452 skills on my ranger. I also have over 8 million XP and 248 skill points saved for factions. My ranger has been retired for over a month awaiting chapter two, cause there is nothing left for him to do in this game, also others in my guild have done the same.

Ensign · Mar 14, 2006, 11:03 PM // 23:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sagius Truthbarron

In retrospect, as PvP guilds would not be disqualified from this 'PvE tournament', they would probably be in better shape to win any team based challenges

I would go a step further to say that if there was a 'PvE' style tournament for money in this game, that the guilds that you'd see on top of that ladder would be very similar to the ones you see on top of the PvP ladder.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chase the Sky

The winning Korean guild also used the HoD helmets.

Actually I don't believe a single HoD helm was broken out over the entire course of the tournament in Taipei, and from my understanding EvIL didn't even have them in their inventory. The power of the HoD helm wasn't the effect, as much as the threat of the effect. Hexes simply were not a part of the metagame with that thing available, so, perhaps paradoxically, it never needed to be used.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sagius Truthbarron

SO you defend the comment 'PvP players know just as much about PvE as a PvE only player knows about PvP'?

PvP players do not know as many details of PvE as PvE players do. That should be obvious. Powergaming PvE requires specific knowledge of mob locations, patrols, compositions, and skillsets. Now personally I pay enough attention to the PvE side of the game to powergame it but most PvP players do not. It's not because they're not good at it but because they don't care to. In general the PvP side is more concerned with, *gasp*, keeping up on the ever-changing metagame in PvP.

If there was prize money to be won though I'm sure you'd see that attitude change. I can guarantee you that my guild would analyze any tournament zone in stunning detail, dissect, design, and tweak a build to dominate it, practice like mad, and ultimately cut through it with clockwork precision.

Basically there's a certain personality type that gets amped up by the competition and will obsess over every small detail to maximize their chances of winning. In general those people get drawn to PvP instead of PvE for reasons that I think are obvious. Sure there are some PvE players with that personality who are happy sticking with PvE...but I don't think they're anywhere near a majority.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sagius Truthbarron

C. the winning team was more skilled overall

EvIL was the best team at the tournament that weekend. They beat everyone down with superior preparation and playskill. I won't begrudge them anything.

Peace,
-CxE

castanaveras · Mar 14, 2006, 11:11 PM // 23:11

Well, I still feel like Pve is being left out. When I finish the last mission, there's no rewards for our accomplishment, just nothing...instead we're zone back to Droknar's Forge? wth?

Rayea · Mar 14, 2006, 11:22 PM // 23:22

geez, will someone just shoot the next dumb shmuck to say that this game is designed to be PvP only?

IT IS NOT!

it is designed to be both pvp and pve...
you are not expected to pvp in the end after you finish, they just hope that some players will, but they dont give a pair of fetid dingoes kidenys if you do not!

ahem.....
i do not begrudge, or even realy care if pvp players get a cash insentive....they have had to grind in their own way, be it a maybe less monotones way, to them.... i find pvp just as monotones and boaring, as you do PvE....
i understand that the world in general likes to see person a getting ganked by person b....its the neanderthal type genes in our make up..its also the reason why folks rubberneck at car wrecks.

but..just for one seccon..can you understand that a pve person can feel a little left out?.....no?....didnt think so.....

we dont all want cash, or real world prezzies....frell, in game rewards would suit most of us...
and, are you sure that when you say, tis easy to get all skills and all elites, you mean ALL....all the primary skills unlocked, all the skills period....
not all the primay for one class and all the secondarys available.
theres skils available in pre sear that you can only get as primary...

pve is definately someithgn different...
people dont want to see players run thru the pve side?
ah, what about when GameNetwork used to show a whole chunk of Mir or Soma ontheir station? folks watched that, frell, I watched that sometimes, to see new areas i never saw...
(this was befor it became a tit and ass phone message hotline dross channel)

Mandy Memory · Mar 14, 2006, 11:38 PM // 23:38

The only way to have a true PvE prize would be that you arent up against other players. Therefore it would have to be:

Anyone who fights through this huge maze alone within Starttime - Endtime will get an equal division of the prize.

If it went to the first person you would be playing against other people and it would be like a relic map. If you are trying to be the fastest its just an elimination map. The only way to have a pve prize is to give everyone an equal shot.

(chances are the area would be farmed anyways.... >.< )

It also would be so freaking hard to keep the amount of people completing it to a minimum that it would take some abused bug to even have a chance.

And if there was a pve prize...the pvp people would take it anyway. They are so much more competitive that the pve players would cry.

CyberNigma · Mar 14, 2006, 11:43 PM // 23:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Actually I don't believe a single HoD helm was broken out over the entire course of the tournament in Taipei, and from my understanding EvIL didn't even have them in their inventory. The power of the HoD helm wasn't the effect, as much as the threat of the effect. Hexes simply were not a part of the metagame with that thing available, so, perhaps paradoxically, it never needed to be used.

heh, the nuclear option in other words :-) That's pretty interesting in itself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by castanaveras

Well, I still feel like Pve is being left out. When I finish the last mission, there's no rewards for our accomplishment, just nothing...instead we're zone back to Droknar's Forge? wth?

Yeah, I posted something like that in another thread. I actually thought I'd get warped to the Hall of Heroes (since I had no idea at the time what it was and figured there was a PvP and PvE entrance to it). You can imagine my face when I got dropped off in Droks. I also thought that was another way to get a Celestial Sigil without buying it. Some kind of special emote for that character for say Finishing the game, Finishing the Game and all Bonuses, Doing all the quests in FoW/UW, finishing ToPK, all the quests in Sorrow's Furnace. That's a good point.

Ensign knows quite a bit more about PvP than I do so I won't even try to second guess his statements. I think where I see a difference though is that maybe the PvE would be more of a surprise in a championship, where nobody can really pick it apart before its played. Technically it would be static, but since you're only playing it once, I think that would not matter. I do realize that it would be some intense work on the part of ANet to create new content for each round of the championship as opposed to PvP because they provide the change and not the other players. As far as leading up to the championship I believe something like tough areas (similar to UW/FoW) could be developed and the guilds that complete them first or best or whatever could move onto a new round. Small areas could be created and time-limited to one week each which could be used to guage the guilds somehow (a point system or even just number of quests/deaths/etc). After a week that area is closed off and/or replaced so that they don't get too long with it. I agree that there might be a similarity in that the same guilds may win either tournament because they are good at teamwork and/or adapting to change. Then again, who knows. Spawn points, mobs, etc would be entirely unknown until right before the mission is played. Perhaps a crude map could be given and a story for it (laying seige to so and so castle guarded by blah blah) so that they can have some idea on how to prepare for it. The key I think would be to have multiple options for finishing it and let them figure them out in-game.

Anyways, I'm sure someone at ANet more creative than I am can figure something out. As said before, that could be exactly where they are going with the Elite Missions in Factions where you hold areas and have competitive missions (finish goals/best time/most resources/etc). I guess we'll see where they go with it. I agree with Enisng though that there are people that really analyze everything. We like to do that as well, but on the PvE side. The difference is that in the normal PvE play, once you analyze them and figure them out, that's where you get your static play. In a tournament, you only get a limited time (or even limited tries) to do it. By the time you analyze everything, the ara is gone or the mission is over with. Get into this castle and kill the king. Go through this land and retrieve the stolen artifact first. Fight off invading swarms of <insert AI mobs>. Protect the King from the enemy. Many of these would probably duplicate missions we already have, but done in a way to where they are new, one-off missions that nobody has memorized yet.

CyberNigma · Mar 14, 2006, 11:49 PM // 23:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mandy Memory

The only way to have a true PvE prize would be that you arent up against other players. Therefore it would have to be: Anyone who fights through this huge maze alone within Starttime - Endtime will get an equal division of the prize. If it went to the first person you would be playing against other people and it would be like a relic map. If you are trying to be the fastest its just an elimination map. The only way to have a pve prize is to give everyone an equal shot. (chances are the area would be farmed anyways.... >.< ) It also would be so freaking hard to keep the amount of people completing it to a minimum that it would take some abused bug to even have a chance. And if there was a pve prize...the pvp people would take it anyway. They are so much more competitive that the pve players would cry.

Yeah, maybe you're right. It's a tough one. In-game PvP has its prizes (the chests with the Sigils/other drops such as possibly Crystallines) and Farming has its prizes (Fissure Armour/aesthetic weapons). Playing regularly through the missions and quests could probably use something. Maybe like I mentioned earlier: an emote for finishing the game, one for finishing the game and all bonuses, we get fow/uw for ascending, but maybe something like a halo to show it off, or badges for the different accomplishments (though I dunno how you'l show that off). Being dropped off in Droknar's Forge after saving the world (and nothing after doing the titan quests) isn't really something to cherish. You can't even show anyone else you did it because everyone and their mother is at Droknar's Forge :-)

Quite a few PvE players like to show their stuff off in towns and what-not. That's one of the big differences between playing a game like this and playing Dungeon Siege/NwN with friends.

forever · Mar 17, 2006, 05:17 PM // 17:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Actually I don't believe a single HoD helm was broken out over the entire course of the tournament in Taipei, and from my understanding EvIL didn't even have them in their inventory. The power of the HoD helm wasn't the effect, as much as the threat of the effect. Hexes simply were not a part of the metagame with that thing available, so, perhaps paradoxically, it never needed to be used.

This part is interesting. I remember the second game of iQ vs EvIL, the N/Mo from Evil single handedly prevented 2 iQ warriors from ganking their guild lord by hexes. Now are you sure the warriors didn't use HoD helm at that moment? If they had used, would the result be the same or different? And I'm curious why the warriors didn't try to kill the N/Mo first. Probably they were thinking they could kill the guild lord inspite of the necro.

Arcanis the Omnipotent · Mar 17, 2006, 05:26 PM // 17:26

Before this topic goes any further, could I please ask a little common sense.

PVP hardcores, stop saying this:

"This game is PVP only, you want to play PVE go play another game"

Its not true, its stupid and you're a moron if you say it.

denshuu · Mar 17, 2006, 05:28 PM // 17:28

The point isn't that it's a "PvP-only" game, so much that it's a "PvP-focused" game. This is why ANet deemed it fit to call it a Competitive Online RPG.

Arcanis the Omnipotent · Mar 17, 2006, 05:34 PM // 17:34

Apparently you dont want the Trade Channel much, the Farmers have PVE pretty competitive.

Besides, competition can mean anything from competing in PVP matches, to competiting in timed Missions.

I never seen a thing about PVP that has ever held my attention for very long compared to PVE. So if this game is PVP oriented, they're doing a bad job of getting me to play it.

Loviatar · Mar 17, 2006, 05:56 PM // 17:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by denshuu

The point isn't that it's a "PvP-only" game, so much that it's a "PvP-focused" game. This is why ANet deemed it fit to call it a Competitive Online RPG.

you have a very limited mindset if the only thing that comes to mind is personal combat (pvp) when you see *competitive*

and why are the people who are designing and making the game so adamant that this is not a pvp focused game and that the pve is not simply a funnel to the *real pvp game*?

you have this huge playground to explore and do things in and a few small sandboxex (arenas) for the pvp people to play in.

considering putting the amount of development, artwork,level design, and mission/quest foundation on one side of a balance scale and the tiny amount of additional work for the arenas using PVE art/programming/etc and it looks as though the pvp aspect was a small sloppy add on.

Anet says they were made to be equal but what you have in fact is a ton of PVE work balancing a few small sandbox pvp areas

Orbberius · Mar 17, 2006, 05:58 PM // 17:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanis the Omnipotent

I never seen a thing about PVP that has ever held my attention for very long compared to PVE. So if this game is PVP oriented, they're doing a bad job of getting me to play it.

Here's a reward for you: the most-poorly-thought-out-statement-ever prize.